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  Time Bars and Symptomatics

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Author Topic:   Time Bars and Symptomatics
D. Morgan
Member
posted 06-20-2008 12:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for D. Morgan   Click Here to Email D. Morgan     Edit/Delete Message
This is a request for documentation regarding current assessment in the polygraph community about the need/lack of need for time bars and symptomatics. I know that I have read that not using time bars and not using sympto's has not been shown to have any effect on the outcome of the test. I am pretty sure that I heard Kraphol say this during one of the sessions in New Orleans and in Vegas. Additionally, I think one of the presenters in Jacksonville had this on one of his slides.

I am asking for links to documentation or any other verification that this is not something that I am making up because my last intern (SC requires 150 tests under observation before licensure) went to SLED (State L E Division)to have his tests reviewed earlier this week. While there, he was put through the ringer because he was not using time bars or symptomatics. Although I had explained my reasons for not using them and had told him to either use them or not at his own discretion, being new in the field, when he was asked why by the SLED supervisor his only response was "Because that's the way they do it in Spartanburg". I was later put on an impromptue conference call with the Supervisor and at least one other SLED examiner and asked to explain my reasoning. Knowing the Supervisor personally, I chose not to get into a telephone debate, but I did advise that I did not have any article in front of me at that moment, but that I had heard this and read this during at least the last two APA conf. and the AAPP conference. This Supervisor, nor any other SLED examiner, has not attended any APA or AAPP conference in the last five years (to the best of my knowledge).

I know what the arguments are for and against the use of these and for those who choose to use them that is fine with me, I will not try to change anyone's mind. It is my belief that they are not necessary and I choose not to use them. I would like to be able to locate something in writing or something specific that I can show to the SLED supervisor to show that this is not something that I am making up on my own. One of his comments to me that was particularly irritating was that since I was not using time bars that I "need to stop putting on your paperwork that you used an AFMGQT format and instead put that you was using the Spartanburg MGQT format." As anyone can see, this is a foolish statement because the quality of the comparison (presence or lack of a time bar) has nothing to do with the sequencing of questions which is the "format". Granted, the failure to use a symptomatic does change the format of a ZCT, which is the reason that I routinely do not use a ZCT (I will use a Bi-Zone occasionally).

So, if anyone can help me with a link, an email with something that I can print out, or offer any other confirmation that I am not making this up, I would greatly appreciate it.

On a side note, I had a good time meeting many of you in Jacksonville. That was my first AAPP and if it were not for the fact that I have to rotate with my other examiner between the APA and AAPP I think that I would prefer the AAPP every year.

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D. Morgan
Member
posted 06-20-2008 02:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for D. Morgan   Click Here to Email D. Morgan     Edit/Delete Message
I would like to thank Barry for the helpful articles on symptomatics. If anyone else has anything on the time bar issue I would greatly appreciate that as well.

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skipwebb
Member
posted 06-20-2008 03:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for skipwebb   Click Here to Email skipwebb     Edit/Delete Message
You can find two studies, one by Horvath (1988)and the other by Caps, Et al in Polygraph Volume 20 (1) at 1-6 and 7-25.

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skipwebb
Member
posted 06-20-2008 03:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for skipwebb   Click Here to Email skipwebb     Edit/Delete Message
You can find two studies, one by Horvath (1988)and the other by Caps, Et al in Polygraph Volume 20 (1) at 1-6 and 7-25.

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J.B. McCloughan
Administrator
posted 06-22-2008 01:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for J.B. McCloughan   Click Here to Email J.B. McCloughan     Edit/Delete Message
There was an article in the Polygraph Journal by Don Krapohl regarding exclusive and non-exclusive comparison questions, which indicated that this debate is as good as finished.

This study was included in the information used for the articl:

quote:

Effect of Two Types of Control Questions and Two Question Formats on the Outcomes of Polygraph Examinations*
• Frank Horvath, 1,† Ph.D. and
• John J. Palmatier, 2 Ph.D.
• 1Michigan State University, School of Criminal Justice, 560 Baker Hall, East Lansing, MI 48824.
2Dawn Associates LLC, 5732 S Plum Bay Pkwy, Tamarac, FL 33321.
Additional information and reprint requests:
Frank Horvath, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor
School of Criminal Justice
Michigan State University
108, Columbia Club
Blythewood, SC 29016
E-mail: Horvath@msu.edu
*This research was supported in part by the School of Criminal Justice, Michigan State University and a grant from the American Polygraph Association to the APA’s Credibility Assessment Research Center. All statements, opinions, and points of view are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent the position of the APA or its members.
†Present address: 108 Columbia Club Dr. West, Blythewood, SC 29016.
Abstract
Abstract: Two major variations of polygraph "Control Question" testing, the Zone Comparison (ZoC) and the Modified General Question Test (MGQT) were evaluated. Within each, the type of control question, Exclusive or "time bar" (e.g., "Before you were 21, did you ever...") and Nonexclusive or "no time bar"(e.g., "Did you ever….?") was manipulated in a mock theft scenario, with 80 male and 40 female subjects randomly assigned to be either innocent or guilty. Polygraphic data collected by experienced field examiners were numerically scored by an evaluator blind to all aspects of the study. Decision accuracy was not related to the type of procedure (ZoC/MGQT) used or the subject’s sex. Accuracy was significantly related to the type of control question [÷2(2) = 11.46, p = 0.003; ôc = 0.29]. Nonexclusive control questions produced greater accuracy than Exclusive control questions on both innocent and guilty subjects. These results and subjects’ self-reports support the general "theory" on which control question (CQ) testing is based. The need for better empirical support of accepted dogma and current field practices is strongly indicated by these findings.


[This message has been edited by J.B. McCloughan (edited 06-22-2008).]

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rduck
Member
posted 06-23-2008 02:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rduck   Click Here to Email rduck     Edit/Delete Message
Thanks Danny.Yes folks I'm the intern. Wow, I guess that light at the end of the tunnel is a train.

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D. Morgan
Member
posted 06-23-2008 02:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for D. Morgan   Click Here to Email D. Morgan     Edit/Delete Message
Yes Richard, that light is a train and I am throttling up. I thought I had taught you to think quick on your feet. Even if you didn't know the right answer you should have been able to BS'em. Remember, I good polygraph examiner doesn't know everything, we just make people think we do!!!

To all of you who have sent me article to help with my response to the assault on my professional knowledge and integrity, I am greatly appreciative. Jaime, Dr. Horvath sent me a pre-release of his newest article. Thanks again.

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J.B. McCloughan
Administrator
posted 06-23-2008 06:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for J.B. McCloughan   Click Here to Email J.B. McCloughan     Edit/Delete Message
Frank would have contacted you earlier, he just needed to know your email.

If you or anyone ever needs anything, just email me with any requests or questions. I don't always know the answer but most of the time I can direct you to someone who does or a resource regarding it (and I know that there are others here who can as well).

As busy as I have been lately, I check my email daily because I have to but I have not been on the net as much.

Best Regards,

Jamie

[This message has been edited by J.B. McCloughan (edited 06-23-2008).]

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Ted Todd
Member
posted 06-23-2008 10:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ted Todd     Edit/Delete Message
Can anyone post the article here??

THX

Ted

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D. Morgan
Member
posted 06-24-2008 09:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for D. Morgan   Click Here to Email D. Morgan     Edit/Delete Message
Ted,

I sent an email to Dr. Horvath to see if it would be okay to post the article since it has not been published yet. It actually has been published in the Journal of Forensic Science (I think), it just has not come out in print yet. If he gives me the okay then I will get it posted here. More than likely I will have to ask someone to tell me how to post it here, but I will do what I can.

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D. Morgan
Member
posted 06-24-2008 01:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for D. Morgan   Click Here to Email D. Morgan     Edit/Delete Message
Dr. Horvath advised that at present the article cannot be published as this would be a copyright violation. He said the article should be published soon in the Journal of Forensic Science.

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polypro
Member
posted 06-24-2008 01:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for polypro   Click Here to Email polypro     Edit/Delete Message
With the confessions that I've received during the period that I'm attempting to exclude with time bars, I would have to conclude that examinees pay little if any attention to those exculsionary attempts. I know symtomatics are within the question string to test for outside issues (anticlimatic dampening); however, does that have a significant influence on the outcome of the examination? Evidently, someone, at some point, thought that those question played a part in a valid outcome. That's just the problem with polygraph - what some thought important yesterday, may not be applicable scientifically today, but rather than take those of yesterday to task, we simply obey their obsolete rules. We tend to live more by scientific lore than scientific research. Sorry about my spelling and ranting. I broke my glasses yesterday. Can't hardly see a d!@#$ thing, but I felt that it necessary that I reply to such a very important issue that I feel strongly about.

[This message has been edited by polypro (edited 06-24-2008).]

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D. Morgan
Member
posted 06-24-2008 01:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for D. Morgan   Click Here to Email D. Morgan     Edit/Delete Message
Can anyone provide me with Ted's email or get in touch with him and have hime email me?

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Ted Todd
Member
posted 06-24-2008 02:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ted Todd     Edit/Delete Message
ttodd@contracostada.org

925-646-4681

Ted

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